Mike the Girl
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Auditions

7/9/2009

55 Comments

 

After every audition, there are people who feel disappointed in their level placement.  There are always questions, always appeals, and occasionally even tears.  So to try and reduce the amount of sadness that follows auditions, I wanted to write a little about the reality of auditions/tracks, both from the perspective of a post-aha student and from the perspective of a teacher/judge. 

First things first: the advanced level of a workshop is not Advanced.  It's "the top x leads and follows who auditioned."  Not making the top x students doesn't mean you're not advanced.  Conversely, making the top x students doesn't mean that you are advanced.  Next time I have resources allowing, I'm auditioning all student except total beginner, and calling them shoe, toolbox, windex, and candle.  The different tracks, rather than serving as a global indicator of your dancing, give you an idea of where you are relative to the other students at that workshop.  That is all.  

Also, consider this: once your dancing gets past a certain point, people become delighted to discover you.  You regularly get comments like, "that was awesome!" "you follow everything/everything you lead works" "you're so much fun!"  That point is not the advanced student threshhold.  It feels that way, I realize.  Dancing suddenly works, people give you nothing but positive feedback... rainbows sing and puppies fly.  I know.  That's a really beautiful place.  But it doesn't equal advanced.  When (or if) it happens depends on the dancer, but please don't think it means anything about your level.  And even if it did, remember my first point.

The judges are not amateurs.  Before you decide that a judge simply can't tell how good your dancing is, consider this: dance instructors make their livings by learning to see dance.  We have learned to diagnose connection issues visually.  We can also see move choice, rhythm, posture, musicality, control, balance, and quality of movement.  For follows, don't be fooled by the idea that if you only get average leads, we can't see you shine.  A beautiful dancer will make simple movements shine- they have control, quality and richness of movement.  A lesser dancer will lack the same control, even on nicely led fancy moves.  Quality of movement matters, y'all- it's more than a style thing.  For fun (by which I mean education), go watch the SYTYCD auditions on youtube.  Not only can you pick out stronger dancers during the choreography, where everyone gets the same movements, but you can see on movements as simple as a step, or a hand gesture, during their solos.  Go look!  And then give your judges a little more credit.  


On that note, leaders, what judges want to see at an audition are your.... basics.  We want to see your fundamentals.  We're not looking for which leaders have the fanciest moves.  We're looking for solid leaders.  And, might I mention, it would be nice to see the follows do their fundamentals, but that's reliant on you, boys.  



When I was at Herrang in 07, I was sorely disappointed to be left out of Advanced I.  But after a few days, it dawned on me.  Yes, I had followed just fine.  But the difference was that while Advanced II follows could follow everything, Advanced I follows made it look like art.  And there, children, lies the rub- dancing is about more than just connection.  At some point, very late in the learning process, the visuals matter.  No, I don't care about your styling (yes, judges can see past styling to fundamentals).  What I care about is that after you reach a certain point in connection, the sorting variable becomes about aesthetics, and taking you art past something purely social, and turning it into art.  Don't lose the social- connection is always important- but on top of that, make it yours.  Have control over every bit of your body (and control involves relaxation as well as engagement).  


If at this point, you say to me, "But I don't care how my dancing looks- I only care about connection" then be satisfied with what level you get placed in.  Don't place stock in a placement (such as between the top two levels) that involves a variable you don't care about.  By your metric, your level should be as good as the next, so be happy- and that's not me being snarky.  I truly wish people would enjoy their levels, and make the most of them.  Every moment you think about being in the wrong level is a moment you're not open to learning.  It suddenly becomes about preconceptions and ego.  Some of the best classes I've ever had were in tracks that were too low, or that I thought were too low (which looking back, were right on).  


One last point: it's not only unkind to your possible classmates to put you in the wrong level.  It's unfair to you.  We as instructors want to give you the best chance to learn the most possible.  The instructors are just as good in a lower track, but they're fine-tuning the material to the needs of that group. 


Yes, misplacements occasionally happen.  But they're very, very rare.  And if you're open and working hard, you'll get more out of being placed too low than too high.


With love and good will,
-Mike

55 Comments
Susan Manke
7/9/2009 01:51:32 am

Nice perspective, Mike. Thanks for posting it.

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7/9/2009 02:03:36 am

Very nice words of wisdom, Mike! Your explanation was clear and thorough and, I think, much needed.

I admit to being a complainer about my level before, but I also found that once I got into the classes, I learned a lot. Also while I may have been somewhere in the top of that level, I realized that I had been placed well. It is a valuable lesson. Thanks for putting it so well.

-Becky

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Christine
7/9/2009 02:27:25 am

SO right on, mikeness. I'm a hopeless neurotic, and a busy lady, so I often have fits of paranoia vs. puppy-feathers over my dancing: I'm not good enough! But people like me... I'm great! ...but I'm not competition-great...

The most wonderful experiences that I've had, not just dancing, but in all steps of my life, are those when I'm grooving like you talk about fundamentals. Engaged, relaxed, aware, ready both to receive what the world has to scatter into my senses and to blow some of my own style back her way. Hooray.

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Mike t.G.
7/9/2009 03:46:42 am

A few points:
1. Don't think of placement as a bumping down, or holding back; we don't- we look for people who are standing out from the pack, and bump them up. You don't start high and move down- you start low, and get bumped up. That's a subtle difference, but important.
2. Personal feedback, while a really great idea, would take forever. The judges don't have the time to do mini-privates during auditions; auditions need to be quick. If you want to know more, take a short private from a judge.
3. Not in response to, but sparked by the mention of priorities: keep in mind that if you're really great at a skill that the judges aren't touching on during a weekend, why would we place you based on that skill? If you're a ballroomin master, but the weekend is a jookin' weekend, we're still placing you based on jookin'. Yes, you're awesome at ballroom, but that isn't the point. So beware of feeling justified in dissatisfaction with irrelevant skillsets.

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Steve
7/9/2009 04:39:23 am

Hmm. I think I'd just rather leave all the placements up to the professionals. I'm pretty sure that any pro would know where I belong much better than I could. Why would I even audition if I wasn't prepared to be judged?

I must admit to some recent frustration in classes though. I have a hard time telling which follows are being honest about the leads I'm giving them and which are just good at anticipating.

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Tonia
7/13/2009 08:27:55 am

Yes, yes, and yes.

And, I find that I learn a lot more being at the top of level X than the bottom of level X+1 - I can work beyond the obvious material that way.

We miss you! When are you coming to visit?

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Cari
7/16/2009 04:54:53 am

Thanks for the post, Mike. I´ll admit to complaining once or twice before...but usually, I tend to be satisfied with my level placement--it helps that the friends who I started dancing with in the beginning were brutally honest with me, telling me that I should suck it up and take the beginner´s class, because I´d end up a better dancer in the long run from it. (I love you, Tonia, Rachael, and Alex.) I disliked their honesty then, but I appreciate it now, and I think everyone needs a knocking down once in a while, especially in the beginning...it makes placements easier, at the very least.

The only thing I ever get annoyed with is when I want to know WHY I was placed in a certain level--this comes more between the intermediate levels and advanced than the advanced I and advanced II, as you talked about in this post. Sometimes it´s easy to ask, and sometimes it´s not--but if the judge, whomever s/he is, is honest with me and tells me one or two things they may or may not have seen...well, I´m always grateful. But some judges, I have found, don´t have a specific reason. It´s no fault of theirs--for example, at Lindy Focus, there were too many people to really judge each one individually. But sometimes, I wish it were easier to get feedback.

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Liz
7/18/2009 05:45:41 pm

Thank you. I've tried to tell people these things so many times and it seems that many would rather complain than hear why things are how they are. The few people I know who have been truly misplaced have also, coincidentally, not been those complaining but instead those who asked what they should do differently next time as they milked every moment out of every class.

Level doesn't matter. Learning does.

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Aaron V.
7/19/2009 03:11:46 am

I love the shoe, toolbox, Windex, and candle idea! It seems like everyone tends to equate "Advanced track" with being a better person-- one thing that has really shocked me is when I've been placed in the second-to-top level and people come up to me throughout the weekend telling me how they think I should have been placed higher. I'm happy where I am! I certainly don't need people telling me I should be pissed off ;)

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Mike,
We've never met - but I loved this blog. I recently came to a similiar conclusion myself while out of a competition. I called it the "Vespa" syndrome. That's how I saw myself. A Vespa's got all the right pieces and yeah - they're pretty cute. You can have alot of fun, maybe the most enjoyable ride of your life on a Vespa, but they don't have that high performance feel and ride - let alone the look you get on a fancier motorcycle. I started classifying people by bikes since then. Who are the Harleys (all about visual appeal/styling?). Who are the rice-burners? (only FAST Lindy -all the time!) Who's the Ducati?
The comparison starts to fall apart as people have preferences for different bikes but I'd counter it's just like people having different preferences in dance. It's a thought-in-progress.

ANYWHO - Enjoyed your article, it sold me on a workshop with you for my gf and I.
SEE YOU IN TAMPA THIS WEEKEND!

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Laurel
11/17/2009 10:29:15 pm

<i>Every moment you think about being in the wrong level is a moment you're not open to learning.</i>

Right on!! I'm not at the point yet where I'd really think about being in advanced classes, but when I do, I will definitely keep this in mind! And I've already noticed my ego holding me back from learning in classes, ie "Well she does it like that but I like doing it like this." Stupid because I ALREADY know how to do it like this, I should try something new and if I don't like it, it's not like my styling is going to break! Another pitfall I get into is focusing on what the weaker leaders in the rotation are doing wrong and how I'm not to blame. But if I catch myself in time, I can remind myself that it's the best opportunity to learn the art of looking good with anyone. And finally, after Steven & Virginie, I now understand that there is an INFINITE amount of knowledge and improvement to be gained in taking a beginner class if you're just open and receptive and leave your ego at the door.

Anyway, so good to see you this weekend!

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Keith Moore
2/12/2010 03:09:15 am

I realize I'm responding to this a bit late, but I didn't get the memo that your blog moved, and I'm just now catching up.

I mostly agree with what you've written here, but I'd also like to make a couple of counterpoints:

I really like the shoe, toolbox, windex, and candle idea, especially if it gets people away from thinking in terms of levels and hierarchy. I understand and respect the need to teach people at their level, and to avoid holding back a class because of students who aren't up to the material. But the minute you classify people into strictly ordered levels, you're unfortunately creating a hierarchy not only for the classes but also for the social events. It's hard to avoid that happening when people naturally see the people in their classes more than they see the people in other classes. A couple of years ago I attended a workshop that blurred the levels a bit by having level N's schedule be concurrent with some of the level N+1 classes and some of the level N-1 classes. I expect they got some negative feedback for it, but I thought it worked fairly well. It didn't bother me to share some classes with level N-1 as long as I also got to share some classes with level N+1. I also remember an ABW a few years ago when everyone got a colored wristband indicating their level, but which was white on the inside - and large numbers of people turned them inside out for social dancing.

Another unfortunate side effect of level tests and class levels is that they do indeed hold people back, particularly if there are not enough class levels - and there rarely are, for the simple reason that even in a workshop where there are enough people attending to hire lots of good instructors, most venues do not have enough dance floors. The people who are near the top of their assigned level aren't going to get much out of the classes. It's all well and good to say that those people should give it their all, but it's hard for them to concentrate on the finer points of technique when their dance partners in class don't yet know how to stay on top of their own feet and keep expecting their partners to make up for their lack of balance. And, unless it's a solo class, or one where you have the same partner throughout, the instruction is almost inevitably going to be directed toward the less capable half of the class. Which means that those on the ragged top edge of the class (some of whom, on a different day, might have placed a level higher) are probably going to get very little out of the classes - maybe a useful point here and there, but not much for their time or money spent, and almost certainly nothing to help them move up to the next level. They would have been better off spending their money on a private or two.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be levels or level tests, and I'm certainly not trying to imply that I belong in the top level of any workshop...it's quite clear to me that I'm not there. But while they might be necessary, or at least difficult to avoid, their effects are not all good.

Three other comments about level tests: One is that the level criteria should be made clear before the test, rather than forcing the students to guess. Another is that the level criteria should be consistent with what is needed to participate effectively in that particular class, not merely what looks better. Otherwise the judges are cheating people who paid good money to be there, even if it does help balance class sizes. The third is that because group evaluations always bring with them the potential for errors, there should be an appeals session that is published and part of the schedule, rather than some ad hoc process.

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Andy Kauffman
11/14/2011 01:27:45 am

OOh! I hope I get 'shoe'! If not, I'm complaining! Where's Mike?!

And yes, I am completely kidding...

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Dan
11/14/2011 01:33:58 pm

Utter load of tripe.

How about this... A social dancer who's only goal is to dance well in a relaxed social environment, being subjected to a competition style grading with a room full of potentials. That person could be a brilliant dancer, and since never entering a competition, fails at some basic moves. You've now put that person in a lower tier, they learn nothing the entire camp, and are extremely discouraged to pay money next year.

Auditions are necessary, but there has to be qualification of the dancers objectives and goals. Fairness cannot be achieved by judging someone in an environment that is entirely foreign, and not a requirement of being a good dancer, only a competition orientated dancer.

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11/14/2011 11:59:40 pm

Hi Dan,

I find it interesting that you completely dismiss my post in your first sentence, when I feel like it's pretty clear that you didn't read it in an open and honest way. However, I'm happy to address your concerns.

1. I as a judge do not judge on mistakes. I judge on overall patterns. For instance, if gremlins get in the way, and your super fancy turn fails, I don't care. I make mistakes all the time! But if your turn works, but it looked arm-y and stiff, that's what I see. Sometimes the weaknesses of a dancer lead to failed moves, sometimes not.

2. Group auditions like that are designed to watch your social dancing. I have seen competition-style auditions, where you go in front of the judges, 10 at a time, have them take notes, and go on your way to wait nervously. Yes, there's some mental pressure, but the auditions are designed to let you do social dancing- and that's what we're looking at.

3. For me, the metric that I use when doing level placements is this, and only this: "How will they do in the hard classes? Do they need information that's present in the lower level classes first?" Let's say you're lousy at contrast (I'm sure you're wonderful at it, but let's be hypothetical). In a competition, that's curtains, sir. But in level auditions, unless it's a very high level indeed (where I can work on super high-level musicality), I want to know more about your functional skills, and whether you recognize jukin v ballroomin. Movement quality is important in high-level classes, and we often work hard on movement quality in intermediate tracks. That's usually one of the biggies that holds people back. A dancer who has been dancing a long time and has their own style but lacks good momentum skills will not do well in an advanced ballroomin track, and so on. I consider my material, look at your dancing, and ask what will help you learn the best- not whether you'd look great in finals. I promise.

4. Bear with me- this point is going to sound insulting- read all the way through, because it's only insulting out of context. Your goals don't matter in an audition (wait! I'm not a jerk!). Your goals matter when you choose a workshop. Your goals matter when you take a private. In an audition, your skills matter with respect to the classes and your peers that weekend. It's a snapshot. This was implied in point #3, but I want it to be explicit. If you want to be a bad-ass ballroomer and you're well on your way, but you have terrible isolation skills (I'm sure you don't), and I know it's going to be a jukin-heavy weekend... you'd do terribly in those classes. I need to put you in the lower level. Make sense?

5. If a dancer says, "I won't learn anything in the lower level classes," I am 100% certain they are right.

6. I'm not done with point #5- let me make it extra clear. I would learn a great deal by taking a basic from Chris and Campbell, for example. Or an intermediate class. Or an advanced class. Have you done those "moves" before? Great. Is your movement quality as good as theirs? Have you done it with 5 follows in a row, each time tweaking your own body, to train your sensitivity to your follows? Have you watched for subtleties in their shaping?

I will admit that this is a heated topic from me, and it's taking a great deal of willpower to stay polite on that topic- I do hope that you (and the interweb) appreciates it.

I need you to know that I genuinely appreciate (most of) your input, and the chance to comment on your concerns. I understand that this is an emotional topic, and have one final suggestion (something that's been rattling around in my brain). Find a teacher who you trust and to whom you would listen well. Ask them to become your coach. You don't need to book hours on hours of privates, but ask them to guide your learning- tell you what your weaknesses might be that are holding you back, or to help you understand why you might get placed somewhere in an audition that's disappointing. They could help you choose workshops that suit your goals, or that strengthen your weak points. It's a service that I think many people could use, but clearly you're unhappy with auditions, and perhaps more information might be illuminating.

All the best,
-Mike

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Dan
11/17/2011 06:05:27 am

Firstly, I did read your entire first post, and all of the comments.

1. You may judge like that, but you cannot say every judge does. I have watched the audition process multiple times, and there have been a number of occasions where people have been pushed to a lower level because of mistakes. I have watched judges looking around the room, see a mistake, and never look back at that person, having already eliminated them. When I was eliminated in this way (because it's pretty obvious I was, given the context of this rant) I had 3 other people in the lower class whom had the exact opinion I did, and also decided to not return to the event. So your first point is invalid for a generalised summary.

2. It is NOT social dancing. How can standing in a room, on the first day of classes, being given a routine, or specific instructions, be in any way shape or form "social" or "casual"? It is high-stress and pressure for those individuals whom do not dance for that goal. Your perception of what the audition is is irrelevant, as your job is to make the process fair and equitable for all (or at least it should be). If you continue to audition true social only dancers in this way, you will drive them away from the swing scene.

3. So to summarise, you think about what's in the class and see if they look like they can do it. Ok... that's pretty obvious, and elementary. The issue isn't whether you compare the dancer to the level of the material, the issue is whether you give the dancer a fair and equitable path to prove their competence for the high level class.

4. Same answer as above. I get it. You look for things. I'm sure you can see exactly what a dancer can and can't do, I'm not debating that at all.

5. At the time I personally was pushed down to the lower class there was absolutely no recourse or method of appeal. I was kicked down, both literally and metaphorically, and had to endure an entire day of excruciatingly boring classes, terrible following, and the humiliation of seeing every person I knew well - all my level dancers - in the next room learning amazing things. Do you allow the eliminated a chance to discuss their elimination? If I had that opportunity I would have explained the pressure I felt, and had them do a quick private audition with 1 or 2 teachers, or whatever situation worked best FOR ME. I was eliminated on a couple of fumbles from nerves, and paid for it with my time, and of course my money.

6. I've regularly attended lower classes to improve every aspect of my dancing, and to help follows who are learning to have an opportunity to dance with an experienced dancer (with modesty of course, I never pick them on mistake, nor offer advice, nor look bored. I join in and lead the basic stuff being taught as accurately as possible). I know there are holes in my dancing, and I know my weak points... and you know what's funny about nerves, pressure and intimidating circumstances? It brings out those old mistakes. Just last night I played a gig in front of 60 odd people with my band... and I screwed up songs that I have been playing for years.

Your final point - yes, talking to a teacher and getting them to mentor you is a great idea, and is exactly what I personally have done. I have worked for many years with my teacher, taken private lessons, and asked for, and applied, tons of feedback regarding my dancing. I'm a great social dancer leading mostly core moves, and I get constant feedback from all levels of follows regarding the great feeling of the dance, and you can tell from the smile anyway.

I have never entered a competition, and I never want to. Dancing is just for enjoyment, a hobby, and I dedicate a lot of time to do it as well as I possibly can, to increase my enjoyment and my dance partner. I attend camps to get intense information and skills transferred from new and interesting teachers. I DO NOT attend camps to be forced into proving my dancing in a high pressure situation, and then being ripped off. I am not the only one with this opinion.

You clearly haven't thought about this extensively enough from a student perspective, and given what I've seen, not many other teachers have either.

Finally, I do appreciate you writing back, and I'm sorry for the hostile tone. I would appreciate a little more professionalism, rather than pseudo intellectualism.

"Dan"

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How about this... A social dancer who's only goal is to dance well in a relaxed social environment, being subjected to a competition style grading with a room full of potentials. That person could be a brilliant dancer, and since never entering a competition, fails at some basic moves. You've now put that person in a lower tier, they learn nothing the entire camp, and are extremely discouraged to pay money next year.

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